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	<title>Comments on: No More Heroes postmortem</title>
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		<title>By: Dan Bruno</title>
		<link>http://cruiseelroy.net/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&amp;feed=Comments+on+Articles+%28RSS2%29&amp;seed=http%3A%2F%2Fcruiseelroy.net%2F2008%2F05%2Fno-more-heroes-2%2F%23comment-465&amp;seed_title=No+More+Heroes+postmortem/comment-page-1/#comment-465</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Bruno</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 22:43:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cruiseelroy.net/?p=82#comment-465</guid>
		<description>Well, I&#039;d say the percentage of people who care about what a video game &lt;em&gt;means&lt;/em&gt; is still vanishingly small. Even if there are some reviewers who are interested in (and capable of) deeper insight, that&#039;s not what&#039;s bringing in the pageviews. The medium is not yet at a point where the average gamer cares much about some greater artistic vision.

That&#039;s my Occam&#039;s Razor take on things, anyway.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I&#8217;d say the percentage of people who care about what a video game <em>means</em> is still vanishingly small. Even if there are some reviewers who are interested in (and capable of) deeper insight, that&#8217;s not what&#8217;s bringing in the pageviews. The medium is not yet at a point where the average gamer cares much about some greater artistic vision.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s my Occam&#8217;s Razor take on things, anyway.</p>
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		<title>By: Sparky Clarkson</title>
		<link>http://cruiseelroy.net/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&amp;feed=Comments+on+Articles+%28RSS2%29&amp;seed=http%3A%2F%2Fcruiseelroy.net%2F2008%2F05%2Fno-more-heroes-2%2F%23comment-463&amp;seed_title=No+More+Heroes+postmortem/comment-page-1/#comment-463</link>
		<dc:creator>Sparky Clarkson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 15:41:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cruiseelroy.net/?p=82#comment-463</guid>
		<description>Sorry I haven&#039;t swung back around to check out these comments again. I wonder what causes people to not &quot;get it&quot;. In surveying other articles prior to writing my own, I ran into a number of reviews where the writer didn&#039;t realize what was going on at all, and some where the writer didn&#039;t get it, but suspected there was something he wasn&#039;t getting. How much of that is Suda&#039;s fault -- the inaccessibility of the game -- and how much is the reviewer&#039;s? I mean, if you accept the premise that games have no deeper meaning, then the conclusion that No More Heroes is a decent, if repetitive, action game with subpar open-world aspects is valid. That mistaken assumption is the reviewer&#039;s fault, but I can also see someone open to the idea of games as art missing the point or getting too frustrated by the setup to actually parse what Suda is saying. That&#039;s Suda&#039;s fault. It would be more reassuring for me to believe that Suda is mostly to blame, but I have a depressing feeling that many of the reviewers (presumably people who have a special love of games) just never thought of asking what NMH might MEAN, artistically.

In the interest of reducing confusion, you can always use my nickname. The funny thing is that a large part of the reason I got a nickname in the first place was that there was a proliferation of Michaels in my high school.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry I haven&#8217;t swung back around to check out these comments again. I wonder what causes people to not &#8220;get it&#8221;. In surveying other articles prior to writing my own, I ran into a number of reviews where the writer didn&#8217;t realize what was going on at all, and some where the writer didn&#8217;t get it, but suspected there was something he wasn&#8217;t getting. How much of that is Suda&#8217;s fault &#8212; the inaccessibility of the game &#8212; and how much is the reviewer&#8217;s? I mean, if you accept the premise that games have no deeper meaning, then the conclusion that No More Heroes is a decent, if repetitive, action game with subpar open-world aspects is valid. That mistaken assumption is the reviewer&#8217;s fault, but I can also see someone open to the idea of games as art missing the point or getting too frustrated by the setup to actually parse what Suda is saying. That&#8217;s Suda&#8217;s fault. It would be more reassuring for me to believe that Suda is mostly to blame, but I have a depressing feeling that many of the reviewers (presumably people who have a special love of games) just never thought of asking what NMH might MEAN, artistically.</p>
<p>In the interest of reducing confusion, you can always use my nickname. The funny thing is that a large part of the reason I got a nickname in the first place was that there was a proliferation of Michaels in my high school.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Bruno</title>
		<link>http://cruiseelroy.net/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&amp;feed=Comments+on+Articles+%28RSS2%29&amp;seed=http%3A%2F%2Fcruiseelroy.net%2F2008%2F05%2Fno-more-heroes-2%2F%23comment-459&amp;seed_title=No+More+Heroes+postmortem/comment-page-1/#comment-459</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Bruno</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 May 2008 16:10:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cruiseelroy.net/?p=82#comment-459</guid>
		<description>That, I think, sums it up perfectly. Well put.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That, I think, sums it up perfectly. Well put.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Abbott</title>
		<link>http://cruiseelroy.net/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&amp;feed=Comments+on+Articles+%28RSS2%29&amp;seed=http%3A%2F%2Fcruiseelroy.net%2F2008%2F05%2Fno-more-heroes-2%2F%23comment-456&amp;seed_title=No+More+Heroes+postmortem/comment-page-1/#comment-456</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Abbott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 May 2008 15:40:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cruiseelroy.net/?p=82#comment-456</guid>
		<description>I definitly see your point about Yahtzee&#039;s approach. It&#039;s his signature, and I  enjoy the unique voice he&#039;s developed. He makes me laugh out loud, and how often can we say that about game reviewers?

I don&#039;t know if this should be classified as ironic or not, but I wonder if Yahtzee, in an odd way, is sort the pot calling the kettle black. He needs to be petulant and aggressively cynical because that&#039;s his signature, but in this case maybe he gets in his own way. He likes the game, but he spends a significant amount of time knocking it down with humor...sort of because he has to. Which is funny when you consider that his basic criticism of NMH is that Suda becomes a kind of prisoner in his own satirical game design. The game could be more fun, but Suda&#039;s voice keeps interfering, he seems to be saying. In a way, the same could be said of Yahtzee&#039;s review of NMH. Just a thought.

Thanks for the conversation, Dan!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I definitly see your point about Yahtzee&#8217;s approach. It&#8217;s his signature, and I  enjoy the unique voice he&#8217;s developed. He makes me laugh out loud, and how often can we say that about game reviewers?</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know if this should be classified as ironic or not, but I wonder if Yahtzee, in an odd way, is sort the pot calling the kettle black. He needs to be petulant and aggressively cynical because that&#8217;s his signature, but in this case maybe he gets in his own way. He likes the game, but he spends a significant amount of time knocking it down with humor&#8230;sort of because he has to. Which is funny when you consider that his basic criticism of NMH is that Suda becomes a kind of prisoner in his own satirical game design. The game could be more fun, but Suda&#8217;s voice keeps interfering, he seems to be saying. In a way, the same could be said of Yahtzee&#8217;s review of NMH. Just a thought.</p>
<p>Thanks for the conversation, Dan!</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Bruno</title>
		<link>http://cruiseelroy.net/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&amp;feed=Comments+on+Articles+%28RSS2%29&amp;seed=http%3A%2F%2Fcruiseelroy.net%2F2008%2F05%2Fno-more-heroes-2%2F%23comment-455&amp;seed_title=No+More+Heroes+postmortem/comment-page-1/#comment-455</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Bruno</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 May 2008 15:21:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cruiseelroy.net/?p=82#comment-455</guid>
		<description>I dunno. Yahtzee&#039;s mix of &quot;real&quot; criticism and taking the piss for the sake of entertainment can make it tough to suss out his points, but I think he was more positive about &lt;em&gt;No More Heroes&lt;/em&gt; than you give him credit for.

There&#039;s a lot of subtle backpedaling in his review. After deriding the game for being a GTA clone, for example, he adds &quot;Well, that was a bit uncalled for&quot;; after complaining that the battle system is &quot;mash A until bored, then mash B for a bit instead,&quot; he admits that &quot;Actually, the swordfighting is pretty fun.&quot; He pretty much needs to criticize the game &lt;em&gt;somehow&lt;/em&gt; -- after all, he&#039;s made a name for himself as a professional cynic -- but I think his positive opinions still shine through.

Towards the end of the video he says that &quot;in spite of the last eight paragraphs of petulant birdlike warbling, I enjoyed &lt;em&gt;No More Heroes&lt;/em&gt; a lot.&quot; Personally, I find his endorsement of the game &lt;em&gt;despite&lt;/em&gt; his issues with the gameplay to be a sign that he &quot;gets&quot; it -- that he appreciates Suda&#039;s satirical intentions and the game&#039;s underlying artistic merit. Because of that, I put Yahtzee more in our camp than in 1UP&#039;s.

Oh, and as for 1UP (and the other similar reviewers), I agree -- they didn&#039;t get it. Hopeless philistines, the whole lot of them. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I dunno. Yahtzee&#8217;s mix of &#8220;real&#8221; criticism and taking the piss for the sake of entertainment can make it tough to suss out his points, but I think he was more positive about <em>No More Heroes</em> than you give him credit for.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s a lot of subtle backpedaling in his review. After deriding the game for being a GTA clone, for example, he adds &#8220;Well, that was a bit uncalled for&#8221;; after complaining that the battle system is &#8220;mash A until bored, then mash B for a bit instead,&#8221; he admits that &#8220;Actually, the swordfighting is pretty fun.&#8221; He pretty much needs to criticize the game <em>somehow</em> &#8212; after all, he&#8217;s made a name for himself as a professional cynic &#8212; but I think his positive opinions still shine through.</p>
<p>Towards the end of the video he says that &#8220;in spite of the last eight paragraphs of petulant birdlike warbling, I enjoyed <em>No More Heroes</em> a lot.&#8221; Personally, I find his endorsement of the game <em>despite</em> his issues with the gameplay to be a sign that he &#8220;gets&#8221; it &#8212; that he appreciates Suda&#8217;s satirical intentions and the game&#8217;s underlying artistic merit. Because of that, I put Yahtzee more in our camp than in 1UP&#8217;s.</p>
<p>Oh, and as for 1UP (and the other similar reviewers), I agree &#8212; they didn&#8217;t get it. Hopeless philistines, the whole lot of them. :)</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Abbott</title>
		<link>http://cruiseelroy.net/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&amp;feed=Comments+on+Articles+%28RSS2%29&amp;seed=http%3A%2F%2Fcruiseelroy.net%2F2008%2F05%2Fno-more-heroes-2%2F%23comment-454&amp;seed_title=No+More+Heroes+postmortem/comment-page-1/#comment-454</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Abbott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 May 2008 14:39:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cruiseelroy.net/?p=82#comment-454</guid>
		<description>I agree we&#039;re on the same page and should have been clearer that my real objection (a minor one, really) is Yahtzee&#039;s discounting of what I see as the central &quot;fun element&quot; of the game. I also detect a strain of anti-intellectualism in his response to NMH. He and others seem to be saying it&#039;s sort of silly to apply artistic interpretation to games because they&#039;re really only meant to be fun. I&#039;m extrapolating a bit, but I think the backlash on this game from the 1Up gang and others has largely been focused on those of us who tried to assign genuine satirical intentions to Suda&#039;s approach. It&#039;s fair to assess how successful this effort was or wasn&#039;t, but I&#039;m struck by how often I&#039;ve seen or heard on podcasts a kind of smirking dismissal of all the artsy-fartsy responses to this game.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree we&#8217;re on the same page and should have been clearer that my real objection (a minor one, really) is Yahtzee&#8217;s discounting of what I see as the central &#8220;fun element&#8221; of the game. I also detect a strain of anti-intellectualism in his response to NMH. He and others seem to be saying it&#8217;s sort of silly to apply artistic interpretation to games because they&#8217;re really only meant to be fun. I&#8217;m extrapolating a bit, but I think the backlash on this game from the 1Up gang and others has largely been focused on those of us who tried to assign genuine satirical intentions to Suda&#8217;s approach. It&#8217;s fair to assess how successful this effort was or wasn&#8217;t, but I&#8217;m struck by how often I&#8217;ve seen or heard on podcasts a kind of smirking dismissal of all the artsy-fartsy responses to this game.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Bruno</title>
		<link>http://cruiseelroy.net/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&amp;feed=Comments+on+Articles+%28RSS2%29&amp;seed=http%3A%2F%2Fcruiseelroy.net%2F2008%2F05%2Fno-more-heroes-2%2F%23comment-453&amp;seed_title=No+More+Heroes+postmortem/comment-page-1/#comment-453</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Bruno</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 May 2008 14:12:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cruiseelroy.net/?p=82#comment-453</guid>
		<description>Michael A.: We&#039;re on the same page here, I think. &lt;em&gt;No More Heroes&lt;/em&gt; is a blast to play, to be sure; Michael C. and I are just theorizing that the parts which aren&#039;t as much fun, like exploring the town and collecting expensive clothes, may be part of Suda&#039;s artistic vision of the game. I think Yahtzee&#039;s point that gameplay sometimes takes a back seat to making a statement is valid, notwithstanding his simplistic opinion of the fighting mechanics.

Man, there are enough commenters here now that I have to differentiate between Michaels. I love it. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael A.: We&#8217;re on the same page here, I think. <em>No More Heroes</em> is a blast to play, to be sure; Michael C. and I are just theorizing that the parts which aren&#8217;t as much fun, like exploring the town and collecting expensive clothes, may be part of Suda&#8217;s artistic vision of the game. I think Yahtzee&#8217;s point that gameplay sometimes takes a back seat to making a statement is valid, notwithstanding his simplistic opinion of the fighting mechanics.</p>
<p>Man, there are enough commenters here now that I have to differentiate between Michaels. I love it. :)</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Abbott</title>
		<link>http://cruiseelroy.net/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&amp;feed=Comments+on+Articles+%28RSS2%29&amp;seed=http%3A%2F%2Fcruiseelroy.net%2F2008%2F05%2Fno-more-heroes-2%2F%23comment-450&amp;seed_title=No+More+Heroes+postmortem/comment-page-1/#comment-450</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Abbott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 May 2008 05:34:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cruiseelroy.net/?p=82#comment-450</guid>
		<description>Your and Michael Clarkson&#039;s comments about the nature of the violence as sexual humiliation give me pause. I obviously like the game very much, but this way of seeing things (which I don&#039;t think is some kind of interpretive reach) makes me want to take a closer look. It&#039;s strange that I didn&#039;t receive the game in this way because as you describe these things I&#039;m thinking &quot;Hmm. Yes. True. Interesting.&quot;

Having said all this, I think where Yahtzee and others get it wrong is in severely under-appreciating the combat system in the game and the crazy, inventive ways it&#039;s implemented. Clearly, the game riffs on all sorts of stuff, but Grasshopper has incorporated a seriously well-tuned swordplay system with motion control in this game, and the wrestling moves are icing on the cake. Add to that the indelible boss assassins (I mean, they are utterly unique villains), and it seems to me there&#039;s a lot of fun to be had, regardless of what you think about riding around town on the motorcycle. Yahtzee is fun because he&#039;s so over-the-top, but sometimes that approach ignores a lot of subtleties, which this game has in spades.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your and Michael Clarkson&#8217;s comments about the nature of the violence as sexual humiliation give me pause. I obviously like the game very much, but this way of seeing things (which I don&#8217;t think is some kind of interpretive reach) makes me want to take a closer look. It&#8217;s strange that I didn&#8217;t receive the game in this way because as you describe these things I&#8217;m thinking &#8220;Hmm. Yes. True. Interesting.&#8221;</p>
<p>Having said all this, I think where Yahtzee and others get it wrong is in severely under-appreciating the combat system in the game and the crazy, inventive ways it&#8217;s implemented. Clearly, the game riffs on all sorts of stuff, but Grasshopper has incorporated a seriously well-tuned swordplay system with motion control in this game, and the wrestling moves are icing on the cake. Add to that the indelible boss assassins (I mean, they are utterly unique villains), and it seems to me there&#8217;s a lot of fun to be had, regardless of what you think about riding around town on the motorcycle. Yahtzee is fun because he&#8217;s so over-the-top, but sometimes that approach ignores a lot of subtleties, which this game has in spades.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Clarkson</title>
		<link>http://cruiseelroy.net/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&amp;feed=Comments+on+Articles+%28RSS2%29&amp;seed=http%3A%2F%2Fcruiseelroy.net%2F2008%2F05%2Fno-more-heroes-2%2F%23comment-449&amp;seed_title=No+More+Heroes+postmortem/comment-page-1/#comment-449</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Clarkson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 12:30:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cruiseelroy.net/?p=82#comment-449</guid>
		<description>The other thing with the clothes, of course, is that one of your major sources for them is the dumpsters. That seems like another sign Suda is needling the completionists. The shirts in the store cost thousands of LB$, but they&#039;re no better than the ones other people have thrown away. Another view of this is that Travis likes garbage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The other thing with the clothes, of course, is that one of your major sources for them is the dumpsters. That seems like another sign Suda is needling the completionists. The shirts in the store cost thousands of LB$, but they&#8217;re no better than the ones other people have thrown away. Another view of this is that Travis likes garbage.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Bruno</title>
		<link>http://cruiseelroy.net/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&amp;feed=Comments+on+Articles+%28RSS2%29&amp;seed=http%3A%2F%2Fcruiseelroy.net%2F2008%2F05%2Fno-more-heroes-2%2F%23comment-448&amp;seed_title=No+More+Heroes+postmortem/comment-page-1/#comment-448</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Bruno</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 03:56:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cruiseelroy.net/?p=82#comment-448</guid>
		<description>You know, I do kind of wonder if Suda had some commentary in mind with the side quests. There are &lt;em&gt;so many&lt;/em&gt; clothes to buy, and they&#039;re so expensive, that it seems like he has to be goading completionist gamers. It reminds me of the house for sale in &lt;em&gt;EarthBound&lt;/em&gt;.

It occurs to me that the last line of my post is a bit of a non sequitur, as I never mentioned whether I actually think the game is fun. I do. I also happen to think Yahtzee is right that the game sometimes sacrifices fun to make a point, but I&#039;m okay with that. James Joyce sometimes sacrifices prose quality, and The White Stripes sacrifice audio fidelity, but that doesn&#039;t make their work bad.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You know, I do kind of wonder if Suda had some commentary in mind with the side quests. There are <em>so many</em> clothes to buy, and they&#8217;re so expensive, that it seems like he has to be goading completionist gamers. It reminds me of the house for sale in <em>EarthBound</em>.</p>
<p>It occurs to me that the last line of my post is a bit of a non sequitur, as I never mentioned whether I actually think the game is fun. I do. I also happen to think Yahtzee is right that the game sometimes sacrifices fun to make a point, but I&#8217;m okay with that. James Joyce sometimes sacrifices prose quality, and The White Stripes sacrifice audio fidelity, but that doesn&#8217;t make their work bad.</p>
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